📄 Archived: 2025-08-06 17:07:00 UTC
🔗 Source: https://old.reddit.com/r/estrogel/comments/1bodb0k/dont_waste_money_on_volufiline_get_the_raw/

# Don't waste money on volufiline, get the raw Sarsasapogenin!

r/estrogel • by u/darthemofan • 23 points

I've been talking about PPAR-gamma and the different ways to simulate it with topicals

I often suggest Zhi Mu and Volufiline, bc it's easy to buy, however as noted by /u/g0ldpunisher in /r/estrogel/comments/12r5our/anti_aging_and_feminizing_fat_distribution_ppar/jguzuzb/ only about 0.2% makes it through the skin - we already know from E2 topical that lipophilic compounds are very hard to pass through the skin without using microemulsions or solvents and penetration enhancers

It's not that Sarsasapogenin doesn't work: if you check the documentation from the manufacturer themselves, it's clear it has an effect on adipocytes... but mostly in vitro: https://d603735139ee19307914-d6a815b22d6f2a42ba4d2d02f9bfe4b6.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/media/volufiline.pdf

Skip to page 19: "the assay was validated by comparison with the positive control, pioglitazone, with which a 521% increase in differentiation stimulation was observed" - but that's in vitro, with 1.75% of volufiline

So doing some basic math, if we assume g0ldpunisher is right (hold that thought) and only 0.2% goes through the skin, you would need 500x the in-vivo dose to get 100%,of the effect (ie getting the 521% gains) and at least 9x to get to 1.9% (to be close to their 1.75%) if you then assume that there's some magic going on that makes the skin let 100% of the volufilne go through (which it wont, the skin is rly good at keeping stuff outside the body)

They talk about in vivo on page 26, and you'll see they start with a 5% cream (out of which we keep assuming 0.2% will make it through the skin, so far less than the 1.75% that's needed to reproduce the effect of pio in vitro) - but how much do they get by doing 2x instead of the 9x?

On table 6, after 56 day, they do get a significant difference: on average 5108 mm3 vs 5046 mm3.

Again, doing some basic math, this means (5108/5046)/5046 = .012 or about 1.2%

So there's some non linearity going on, and they can demonstrate a 1% volume gain - but it's something which requires a complex machine and that won't be visible to the naked eye!

They know it won't stand scrutiny, so they included a "best responders" subgroup, on top of which they fudge the results by comparing to the starting point, which masks any change from weight gain during the study (bc if I was offered to join a study with a compound that's increase boobage, ik I would def pig out to max out the effects!)

Doing some quick math, 521% growth in vitro, 1% volume gains in vivo, 1/521=0.0019 ... so omg we've demonstrated g0ldpunisher math was right: that's the ballpark of what we would expect, and it aint much: 0.2%

Read the whole paper, then read again g0ldpunisher comment, copied below, and you'lll understand that you need to get way more concentration to match pio, and at the price they sell volufiline you're better off getting the raws...

> Volufine and topical ppar modulators do not work. One study showed only 0.2% of an already 2% solution of ach38 (volufine) made it through the dermis. It's wishful thinking sadly.

> As for lifestyle factors they do indeed increase ppar expression and more importantly adiponectin. But the increase is a percentage of the increase seen in oral pioglitazone.

> With regards to effects of different exercise modalities, aerobic exercise significantly increased adiponectin levels (MD: 0.83 µg/mL; 95% CI, 0.23, 1.42, p = 0.007, I2 = 89%) A statistically significant increase in adiponectin levels was found across all subgroups, but study heterogeneity remained high. Interestingly, for intervention duration, studies which lasted ≥12 weeks produced an approximately 5-fold higher increase in adiponectin levels than studies with longer duration (MD: 0.12 vs. 0.49 µg/mL). They saw a ~0.5 ug/mL increase in adiponectin with cardio.

> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6318757/

> this study gives some numbers: https://diabetesjournals.org/care/article/30/6/e48/30654/Pioglitazone-Rapidly-Increases-Serum-Adiponectin

> Total and HMW adiponectin levels both rapidly increased within 3 days of pioglitazone treatment in all subjects and continued to increase throughout the study (total adiponectin 6.6 ± 1.0, 7.9 ± 1.2, 9.9 ± 1.6, 11.8 ± 1.9, and 13.7 ± 2.2 μg/ml [P < 0.05, repeated-measures ANOVA] and HMW adiponectin 4.3 ± 0.8, 5.2 ± 1.0, 7.0 ± 1.3, 8.4 ± 1.5, and 10.4 ± 1.9 μg/ml [P < 0.05] at days 0, 3, 7, 10, and 14, respectively).

> Which is an increase of ~7ug/ml from pioglitazone in only 14days

> Adiponectin directly mediates insulin sensitivity and inflammation in the body. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7554603/

> This paper is not a study on the effects of Pioglitazone directly but a great analysis of the mechanism by which ppar modulators act on humans and mammals. We cannot draw any conclusions from such a paper about the effects of pioglitazone, however these are very much similar mechanisms by which this medication alters metabolism and visceral fat deposition.

> "Weight loss or caloric restriction leads to increasing adiponectin levels, and this increase is associated with increased insulin sensitivity"

> This effect of being chronically metabolically fit happens regardless of weight gain or existing BMI, an effect which is known to to be associated with a low and healthy WHR.

> https://academic.oup.com/endo/article/145/1/367/2878508?

> Going back to that animal study "Chronic exposure to a class of peroxisomal proliferator-activated receptor γ (PPARγ) ligands known as thiazolidinediones can also increase serum adiponectin levels"

> "In girls, increases in circulating estrogens occur during puberty onset and coincide with a marked increase in gluteofemoral SCAT fat deposition (45). The resulting “gynoid” fat distribution is typical of reproductive-aged women;" "Adult men have lower average body fat percentages compared with adult women. Despite these differences in total body adiposity, in adult men, abdominal VAT depots tend to be larger than in premenopausal women"

> This paper shows how estrogen/testosterone directly affects where fat is deposited when it is gained in a metabolically healthy individual. It's my opinion that poor fat distribution after years of transfem HRT is more likely caused by metabolism than poor HRT or "genetic lottery" and cannot be as effectively fixed by diet or exercise, as it can be by increased adiponectin and ppar expression.

> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6795075/

> This table neatly compares known effective adiponectin and ppar agonists.

> https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/19/21/14251

## Comments

u/Emmasissybisex • 3 points

Thanks darth, so this means we should make a more concentrated “volufiline” or a less concentrated version?

I have in my hands ah38 to play with, I was thinking on making a 1 mg/ml serum with it, as it seems is water soluble , I was thinking on trying first a batch with just pg, as a solvent and we already know pg is a penetration enhancer, maybe add some isopropyl miristate to enhance absorption too, let me know how many mg per ml ( like the actual dose will be 1 ml daily with this mg qty on it )

On another subject, I made a 5 mg/ml estriol serum, and used it daily for 7 days at night, it help with pore size, and I look younger, in just 7 days, but the recommended use is 10 mg 2 times a week, my question is, someone commented that estriol has antiestrogenic effects, so will my feminization be affected if I use it daily? Estriol in some studies, has de ability to prevent breast cancer in cis women, also helps with migraines and another benefits too, some trans women started their transition with estriol only and got good results ( even if estriol it is supposed to be 100 times weaker), and some used it scrotally too and it helped with breast growth too ( they were already on hrt for years ) , so right now I’m very confused , don’t know if still use it or not , cause honestly 7 days and seeing positive results is very promising , only side effect I got is that I didn’t have to use moisturizer on my face before this, now I need to, and it is supposed to be normal for cis woman to have drier skin , so it is not a bad side effect per se, thanks my friend , regards

u/darthemofan • 3 points

> Thanks darth, so this means we should make a more concentrated “volufiline” or a less concentrated version?

more concentrated: buy the raws, and mix it with volufiline (just to benefit from the solvents etc).

if the solubility allows it, I would aim for 2/3 raw 1/3 commercial (doing drop by drop to avoid precipitation)

> I have in my hands ah38 to play with

I don't have any formula to suggest you which is why I suggest reusing existing commercial ones and boost them up :(

if you want to make a custom recipe, I would suggest checking on pubmed, and copy their formulas

> I made a 5 mg/ml estriol serum, and used it daily for 7 days at night, it help with pore size, and I look younger, in just 7 days

so you mean science works?

like, you got the effects predicted from the existing research? how surprising lol!

it's like we don't talk shit on this sub lolol :)

> the recommended use is 10 mg 2 times a week

recommended ... for whom? it's likely to be for cis women where it risks disrupting the HPG feedback loop and altering the menstrual cycle

> someone commented that estriol has antiestrogenic effects, so will my feminization be affected if I use it daily

I don't have enough data, so I can't say, but if you are really worried, try to wash your face 5 minutes after applying it: this will only allow the shunt pathway (ie through hair follicules) maximizing the effect on follicules and therefore the pores, without allowing normal transdermal absorption

this method is used by men using E2 to regrow hair without systemic side effects (like boobs) and is supported by papers I read (search the sub for the shunt pathway)

> right now I’m very confused , don’t know if still use it or not

TBH we don't have enough data. We can only speculate.

> cause honestly 7 days and seeing positive results is very promising , only side effect I got is that I didn’t have to use moisturizer on my face before this

This is consistent with existing research, which mentions a dose dependent positive effect, yet at skin flux (doses) way above what commercial E3 allows (it's underdosed, bc its made for different reasons where risks to the HPG feedback are more important that skincare effects, something we dont care if on HRT)

What about you make a post with your recipe, and ask ppl to join in your dangerous experiment?

I'm many years post HRT and I'm fine experimenting on myself. so I'll join in and I'll let you know what kind of results I get (and there may be others who report that too!) but the more ppl the better!

u/Emmasissybisex • 1 points

Thanks friend, yes let me make a post with the recipe

u/Ok-Web9921 • 1 points

do you suggest anything to plump up the under eyes or lips or smile lines? I have zhi my from Amazon and volufine but the volufine mixed with aquaphor didn't work at all. tried for a month. any suggestions?

u/MooshyTendies • 1 points

Hey there, do you know where to source Sarsasapogenin in Europe? If not, any global online shop will do as an alternative. Thanks.

u/Emmasissybisex • 1 points

Hello, no, most of Europe suppliers I checked were branded ones , so prices are high , sorry

u/MooshyTendies • 1 points

Thank you for a fast reply. Could you recommend any US based online shops instead? I only found Zhi Mu extract on amazon and at hawaiipharm website, but I am unsure, if that extract is suitable and what to combine it with to get optimal dosage for daily use. The website says the following about it and I am not sure how to mix it into a DIY product:

> Strength: Dry plant material / solvents ratio 1:3 w/v.
> Main Ingredients: Wild Harvested Zhi Mu, Anemarrhena (Anemarrhena Asphodeloides) Dried Root Powder. Origin: China.

The part about suggested use is also interesting. They assume it will be used orally. Would that make sense for a cis woman? I assume cis male should avoid it orally and only use topical application for treating facial fat loss.

> Suggested use and dosage: Shake well before use. 20-30 drops, three times a day or as directed by your practitioner. The best way to use liquid herbal glycerites is to put the suggested amount in a glass of water, tea, or juice and drink the entire contents. Glycerites can also be administered directly into the mouth without the assistance of water however some glycerites are unpalatable which is why most people prefer to dilute them into a beverage.

Many users mention mixing volufiline with their moisturizer. Do they mean every time they apply it or can it be premixed into a larger container and used for a month instead? I saw in another comment of yours that someone mentioned that one could mix 3:1 raw Sarsasapogenin with trademarked Volufiline and another baseline moisturizer, such as one from Ordinary, where it is assumed that ordinary already optimized the mixture for better absorption through skin barrier.

u/Emmasissybisex • 1 points

Comes to mind lotioncrafter for adyfiline, you can check directly on made in china for the raw powders.

About the usage of those from hawaiipharm, I don’t really know what their focus is, we as transgirls are interested in those types of plants for the “voluminizing effect”, so I would use it topically, BUT, you can also buy the raw powders of zhi mu, and all those plants ( I don’t know them all ), and just make the solution with glycerine like they do or with mct oil like they do, or as you please, and it will be a lot cheaper to DIY, than buying from them, I would think you can use also alcohol instead of glycerine or mct oil, you would have to check the solubility of those powders first, the problem with raw powders of plants, to my understanding, would be concentration doses, with something like acetyl hexapeptide 38, at least we know that adyfiline contained 0.05% of it , so adyfiline has 0.5 mg/ml in the solution , and they recommend to use just 2% of that solution for a final product, why? We don’t know , is it a marketing strategy? Is it for safety reasons? They won’t tell us, remember, those are bussineses, bussineses need to make a profit always, they won’t reveal the reality, in my experience and my own perspective , I think they use so little hexapeptide, because it is a very expensive chem, if they use a lot, a lot less clients will be able to afford it, but that’s just my perspective , I don’t know the real answer .

So take that in mind, and if you want a super cheap price, you will have to find suppliers in China, and you need to check for raws, not finished products, so depending on your needs you have to balanced out your pros and cons, yes, finished products will cost more, but are ready to use, and we can’t judge suppliers, everyone in this world needs to earn something to make profit. Hope this helps, have a great day

u/MooshyTendies • 1 points

So, to make a 2% solution of adyfiline from lotioncrafter would require me to add 50ml of oil/glycerine for every 1ml of adyfiline and a 100ml finished 2%-solution would contain only 1mg of acetyl hexapeptide-38? Is the math mathing? That does seem like a very low dosage. have you used it personally with any success?

It would be cheap. 60g of adyfiline would cost 70 USD before shipping and taxes and would end up, assuming 1mg=1ml, creating a 3000ml of final DIY product.

I'll need a more accurate scale:)

Would it make sense to combine acetyl hexapeptide-38 with Sarsasapogenin solution?

u/Lsomethingsomething • 2 points

Good to know, thank you. Sounds like that's another win for oral pioglitazone, then?

u/darthemofan • 3 points

yes

u/AltruisticNews8856 • 1 points

Acetyl Hexapeptide-38 is not the same as volufiline. I couldn't find any research on how much Volufilin is absorbed through the skin. If you have found it, you can send it to me. I am planning to use a dermaroller for better absorption of volufiline. I saw a woman on TikTok who used volufiline and dermaroller on her lips. At the end of the first month, her lips had grown significantly.

u/darthemofan • 1 points

> I saw a woman on TikTok who used volufiline and dermaroller on her lips. At the end of the first month, her lips had grown significantly.

yes, that's another possibility: just try to use the pure raws as much as possible

ach38 and volufiline and pio are not the same, but the way they work seem close enough that we should expect they will behave the same

u/Tamulet • 1 points

> I saw a woman on TikTok who used volufiline and dermaroller on her lips. At the end of the first month, her lips had grown significantly.

Don't suppose you have a link to this? I'm curious where exactly / how deep she rolled and how natural-looking the results were

u/Fun-Chemical4059 • 1 points

Thank you so much for your research on this . I’m going to try to make my own serum/oil with both the zhi mu and ach38 for under my eyes lips and necklines since it’s my only concern so far with aging . I’m Really wishing I was better at math right now but I’ll figure it out from your other comments 😊

u/Ok-Web9921 • 1 points

how did it work out? did you make your serum? any results?