📄 Archived: 2025-08-06 17:53:56 UTC
🔗 Source: https://old.reddit.com/r/estrogel/comments/gqsh2g/a_practical_use_of_estrogel_as_a_topical_to/

# A practical use of estrogel: as a topical to resume breast growth

r/estrogel • by u/darthemofan • 26 points

According to studies, the average results are pretty sad: 90% of trans women in Europe don't reach an A cup. The median result is a AAA cup:

> " Mean breast-chest difference increased to 7.9 ± 3.1 cm after 1 year of CHT, mainly resulting in less than an AAA cup size (48.7%). Main breast development occurred in the first 6 months of therapy. Serum estradiol levels did not predict breast development after 1 year of CHT (first quartile, 3.6 cm [95% confidence interval (CI), 2.7 to 4.5], second quartile, 3.2 cm [95% CI, 2.3 to 4.2], third quartile, 4.4 cm [95% CI, 3.5 to 5.3], and fourth quartile, 3.6 cm [95% CI, 2.7 to 4.5])"

The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Volume 103, Issue 2, February 2018, Pages 532–538, https://doi.org/10.1210/jc.2017-01927

Most of the growth happen in the first 6 month. We know from the various research from the /r/MTFHRT sub crew that only E2 is necessary. Supplementing E2 by GH, IGF1, and secretagogues like ibutamoren/MK667 have no effect.

Even worse, using P is counter productive: it inhibit the roles of E2, even when both are used topically on the breast, while E2 alone increase the number of cell differentiation

Influences of percutaneous administration of estradiol and progesterone on human breast epithelial cell cycle in vivo, Fertility and Sterility Volume 63, Issue 4, April 1995, Pages 785-791 https://doi.org/10.1016/S0015-0282(16)57482-2 :

> "Increased E2 concentration increases the number of cycling epithelial cells. Increased P concentration significantly decreases the number of cycling epithelial cells." "Exposure to P for 10 to 13 days reduces E2-induced proliferation of normal breast epithelial cells in vivo"

Estradiol and Progesterone Regulate the Proliferation of Human Breast Epithelial Cells, Fertility and Sterility Volume 69, Issue 5, May 1998, Pages 963-969 https://doi.org/10.1016/S0015-0282(98)00042-9

> "Daily topical application to both breasts of a gel containing a placebo, estradiol, progesterone, or a combination of estradiol and progesterone during the 14 days preceding esthetic breast surgery or excision of a benign lesion" "Increasing the estradiol concentration enhanced the number of cycling epithelial cells, whereas increasing the progesterone concentration significantly limited the number of cycling epithelial cells." "Exposure to progesterone for 14 days reduced the estradiol-induced proliferation of normal breast epithelial cells in vivo."

A lot of people, including myself, believe P may lead to final differentiation of the breast tissue to be able to produce milk, giving a little grow spurt, then limiting the possibility of further growth

So why do people report soreness but little to no growth when using topical estrogel, directly on the breast, even for 3 months straight like in today "My experience applying estrogen gel directly to breasts over 3 months (self.TransDIY)" ? /r/TransDIY/comments/gqdvfj/my_experience_applying_estrogen_gel_directly_to/

I have proposed a simple theory of breast growth a few months ago on /r/MtF/comments/fcjqbi/experimental_restarting_breast_growth_long_maybe/ , where growth does not depend on blood levels and in fact give high blood level a negative role, where only the growth in time of blood levels matters: for example, from 1 to 2 = +1, from 1 to 1 = +0 = no growth ; from 1 to 2 to 3 : +1 and +1 growth, etc), and where stalled growth can be resumed by going cold turkey for a while to resensitize or downregulate the estrogen receptors (using estrogel on the face to prevent collagen and subcutaneous fat loss)

I recently submitted it to MTFHRT but it was rejected, as it is original research instead of a meta analysis /r/MtFHRTsubmissions/comments/g7nfhj/a_simple_feedback_mechanism_to_explain_brain/

I think it was fair, since until this week, it was incomplete, as I didn't have any place for the role of soreness if only to connect it to something. After reading this report, and other things in the /r/steroids sub, I now believe soreness or other well known manifestations like enlarged nipples reported by bodybuilders juicing on T (out of which a small part get aromatased away in E) are a necessary but not sufficient condition: it just indicates that cells are starting to proliferate, but not that they will survive and stay.

This is based on a simple fact that bodybuilders and people who experiment with hormones during their questioning or detransition know very well: as long as the growth was recent, it is not "consolidated" and most of it can melt away when stopping hormones.

Given what we know on the effect of topical E that put more cells into mitosis very quickly, it means that something else must happen to obtain this consolidation.

With my theory on the increase of levels, I suggest that it is the continuous increase that "locks" some of this growth, meaning the second derivative must also be positive.

Said differently, if you have a continuous stable dose of 1,1,1,1, the difference is +0,+0,+0 meaning no growth.

If if you increase this dose once it will be 1,1,2,2, the difference +0,+1,+0 but the second derivative ++1, --1: there will be some soreness that will go away

If you increase as I thought, little by little, following the pattern 1,2,3,4, the difference will be +1,+1,+1 and the second derivative ++0, ++0: there will be some soreness but likewise it will go away.

However, a pattern of 1,2,4,7 would give a difference of +1, +2, +3 with a second derivative ++1, ++1 : the growth will be locked, and it will not go away

(the number here do not represent true doses or blood levels, they are just number to illustrate the math using addition and substration that you can do in your head given the very simple numbers chosen)

Then you will ask, "but why did I get some growth during my transition?" : because you had very little estrogen receptors at first, during HRT, an initial upregulation increased their number, making it equivalent to increasing doses.

Eventually, the number stabilizes. So you need to stop cold turkey for a while, as suggested by the stop and go theory to downregulate the receptors (the stop phase), then resume HRT (the go phase) while augmenting slightly the dose of E2 until you feel some soreness, then at this point augment not linearly but geometrically every now and then, to lock these gains.

So it's not just a stop and go theory, but more like a stop and go then pedal to the metal when you start to feel the pain!

Unfortunately, we don't know when to do this acceleration (every day? week? month?), but given what we know on research on most of the growth happening in the first 6 months, we can extrapolate that you have to augment as much as possible during these 6 months or 24 weeks. It is not possible to double every week, and every month would still mean doubling 6 times which is not really practical either. But that's the spirit!

This is very early work. The only reason I'm making this post is to explain the project that drove me to consider brewing estrogel at home: continuing my self experiment that was stopped during the pandemic. Today, reading that other people did similar self experiments inspired me to share my revised theory, in the hope it can be helpful to anyone.

Hopefully, it will inspire other people who want to self experiment. If I could still gain half a cup, even with my lousy protocol from an incomplete theory, while on top of that getting interrupted too early by lack of estrogel, I'm sure you can do better!

A fair warning: E2 increase the risks of breast cancer, but for all we know, this risk is a function of the cumulative dose received during life, and the breast volume. If you started transition even 5 years ago, there is very little risk especially if you didn't get much growth- like say a 20y old woman. Don't do that if you have DD then again, I don't think you'll want to experiment getting more volume lol

There is no such thing as 0 risk, but I feel comfortable experimenting on myself, and I wanted to let you all know about the risks if you want to follow and do the same.

## Comments

u/inconceivium • 4 points

If this is the case then how do you explain women who get good growth and satisfactory results with consistent levels?

u/2d4d_data • 2 points

Of course you have to define "consistent levels" I think only certain brands of patches are able to deliver anything close to "consistent levels", everything else has peeks and troffs.

u/darthemofan • 4 points

that, and either:

- 1) they are the rare lucky persons that would have otherwise gotten great growth / too much to the point of requiring a reduction (this exist, and the lack of such cases in mtfs suggests we're doing something wrong)

- or 2) there're many other things at play that they did right by accident, as it's not clear yet what's the role of physical exercice (seems good), AA (seems good before HRT, bad during HRT), P (seems bad)

u/[deleted] • 4 points

> If you increase as I thought, little by little...

> GH, IGF1, and secretagogues like ibutamoren/MK667 have no effect.

I don't mean to come in and undermine everything you're saying here, as I do think you're making some interesting points here, and would like to see this stuff further flushed out, but allow me to play devil's advocate, as someone who's had significantly different results.

I'm 30 years old, 5 foot 8 inches tall, 140 pounds, and started HRT 11 months ago (July 1, 2019), using the "slow and steady" method - starting with a daily dose of 100mg Spiro and 2mg oral EV before switching to sublingual/buccal a few weeks later, then increased to 4mg EV sublingual at the 2 month mark (Sept. 1, '19), and upped again to 6mg EV sublingual after another 4 months (Dec. 29, '19), and have done my best to maintain my levels by taking it spread out evenly throughout the day, every day. I've also cycled on-and-off MK-677/Ibutamoren twice since the beginning of this year, taking 10mg/day for a one month cycle each time, then going a month without it.

I started out with an undeniably masculine figure - flat as a board, with no curves or hips and a very intense, masculine face. Now, with a good shave (can't wait until lockdown's over and I can start laser again!!!), I'm not just passable - I'm actually pretty hot. My face has softened up nicely, and I now look nearly indistinguishable from younger pictures of my mother. While my mom and sisters all wear around a 36C bra size, I'm currently wearing a size 34B. I may not have kept measurements or know what any of my values have been along the way, but the perceived results have been very consistent from the start, with constant soreness/tenderness and undeniable growth. The curves have been slowly forming the whole time, but I didn't start getting any noticeable hip growth until my first cycle on MK-677 (likely due to my age, therefore decreased natural GH levels raised back up by MK-677), with more it becoming even more noticeable on the second cycle. I've also perceived more constant feelings of tenderness and growth in my breasts when cycling on the MK-677, and they seemed to be filling out more while I was taking it than while I haven't been (but the growth and fullness has all remained).

I'll never claim that it'd work for everyone, but this "slow and steady" system seems to have worked well for me so far, as has the Ibutamoren. I'd certainly be interested, however, in seeing some hard data on both methods presented side-by-side, and could absolutely believe that cycling on-and-off of E2, as you have described, could be helpful for women who have stalled in their progress after having taken a steady dosage for a time.

u/darthemofan • 3 points

I think your slow and steady helped. This is just a slight change over it: when slow and steady stop working, it's time to put pedal to the metal.

Also, I think the splitting of doses help, for some unknown reasons (maybe we need tight oscilliations of the blood levels? pill cutters seem to have better results. It could also be a spurrious correlation as ppl won't bother splitting pills unless they are well versed in the various theories, meaning they may make other good choices we don't understand yet, like say take vitamin D or something that turns out to be very helpful)

Ibutamoren may have been just a coincidence. Lots of people have tried different regimen (up to shooting GH!). Or maybe these things can help, but only if some prerequisites are met, so there is an active growth phase.

The theory is mostly to help people who have stalled growth. It makes predictions on how it could also work at the beginning of transition, but I think it's better to play it safe and reserve experimental methods to when growth stalls

u/EleventyB_throws • 2 points

ehhh, i dunno. i titrated up from 2mg oral E, then to 4mg buccal, split 3-4x daily, then to 6mg buccal, split 3-4x daily all over a period of 9 months. I'm at a year, still on 6mg split 2/1/1/2.

Was on spiro till month 1.5, switchted to Dutasteride for the next 1.5 months, then on to bica. I dropped bica at about month 10 when I was sure my T was at or below 33 ng and is still near there.

I had some nice initial growth at about month four, and then they just stopped. they never stopped being sore, but i've had no growth in 8 months :/

I did just get switched to injections (depo) and have the vial, but haven't injected myself yet

u/darthemofan • 2 points

you should, lot of ppl report growth when changing method.

as to what you said, getting growth when doubling from 2 to 4 is expected. maybe if you had doubled again to 8 or even 9 it would have kept going for a while?

the core idea is to take a break, and restart from scratch. there is not much to lose

u/EleventyB_throws • 2 points

What do you mean by taking a break? I don't want to not take E for any appreciable length of time :(

u/darthemofan • 2 points

> What do you mean by taking a break? I don't want to not take E for any appreciable length of time :(

And that reaction that a lot of us may instinctively have may be exactly why no one has tried that before, while it got me results.

u/EleventyB_throws • 2 points

how long a break do you take?

u/darthemofan • 3 points

we don't exactly know yet. Greater than 2 weeks, for sure. Could be about 1 month, to downregulate the receptors.

A bit like how you need to go cold turkey when you need too high doses of alcohol to get drunk/drugs to get high: you take a break, and it reboots your sensitivity

u/EleventyB_throws • 2 points

I can only imagine the mood swings and remasculinization :/

u/darthemofan • 5 points

> I can only imagine the mood swings and remasculinization :/

Which may be exactly why not a lot of people have tried that. IDGAF I only care about results.

You can use a low amount of estrogen on you face, and AA if needed.

Worked for me, 1/2 cup in the first cycle.

10/10 will do again lol

u/[deleted] • 2 points

> when slow and steady stop working, it's time to put pedal to the metal

I'm with ya. Sounds like a reasonable idea, and worth trying for those who've stalled.

> different regimen (up to shooting GH!)

Whoa... I definitely wouldn't advise that. It's an extremely bitter, acid-tasting powder, usually sold from questionable sources, and I imagine it would probably burn like a motherfucker when injected. That really doesn't sound pleasant.

u/darthemofan • 2 points

> That really doesn't sound pleasant.

Good thing then that we know it doesn't work!

u/EleventyB_throws • 2 points

do you exercise? there's a theory that increased GH helps a lot with transition

u/[deleted] • 3 points

Nope. Not anymore than I have to. That's why I was cycling the MK-677, to (theoretically) stimulate GH production.

u/2d4d_data • 4 points

During the first 6 months of HRT I was on only 2mg (NO AA) of E2 split across the day. It might sound consistent, but it wasn't all because it caused my E2 levels to rise and fall many times every day. Further When I started I was taking it once a day, then splitting to twice a day until at six months 8 times a day like this: https://imgur.com/a/bKILU For my anecdote I am currently a 34D/34DD. My full regimen is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TransDIY/comments/7mznr9/mtf_results_from_using_2mgday_oral_estradiol/ which you can compare to the breast development data during that time period: https://www.reddit.com/user/2d4d_data/comments/ciqkjh/2_years_breast_development/

There was an anecdote about using estradiol valerate over estradiol depo because it would cause soreness. Valerate causes higher highs and lower lows. Is there any sort of connection?

You can easily generate generate experiments from your theory.

- How about comparing the results of those who take estradiol valerate to estradiol depo?
- How about cycling e2, the number of times a day it is taken, starting with 1 and ramping up. (over what time period?)
- How about cycling e2, the amount, starting with 1mg and working up to 8mg (over what time period?)
- How about cycling your P?

Some questions:

- How long does it take to upregulate or downregulate? Is this known?
- How does P's incredibly short half life play into this? I do it once a day, but honestly I know it is mostly gone by morning so it is whipping up and down daily.

u/darthemofan • 2 points

Thanks, that's very interesting!

I think we don't fully know everything and we're missing something. During my transition, I also got better results when I increased the doses not just in 1 taking per day, but dividing that to 2 and rarely 3 applications of gel per day. I didn't think it mattered much, especially given the 6h half life. But it must also have produced some tight oscillations. Maybe there's an oscilliation pattern that prevents the increase of SHBG, by keeping the moving average low, while giving quick peaks that cells seems to like?

And yeah, the theory makes predictions. It'd be better to do that double blind to avoid biases, but here are the prediction if you want to check how it compares to what you've seen on transdiy:

- How about comparing the results of those who take estradiol valerate to estradiol depo?: valerate should give more peaks, depo more steady, so worse results

- How about cycling e2, the number of times a day it is taken, starting with 1 and ramping up. (over what time period?) : it should give better results that constant doses during the geometrical growth phase, then will stop when the 2nd derivates reach its peak as you can't double up much after reaching 8mg/day. Other prediction: people who cut pills and take them several time per day SL should get better results

- How about cycling e2, the amount, starting with 1mg and working up to 8mg (over what time period?) : same as above, unfortunately the time period is unknown. As most result usually happen in 6 month, we could use that to suggest 6 month.

- How about cycling your P? : Any P should give a final bump, then have negative effects

- How long does it take to upregulate or downregulate? : we don't know but we could study bodybuilders cycling regimen to infer some safe default to start with

- How does P's incredibly short half life play into this? I do it once a day, but honestly I know it is mostly gone by morning so it is whipping up and down daily : it should not play any role one way or the other. It helps the maturation to be able to produce milk, but seems to have a negative effect on growth

u/2d4d_data • 2 points

> How does P's incredibly short half life play into this? I do it once a day, but honestly I know it is mostly gone by morning so it is whipping up and down daily : it should not play any role one way or the other. It helps the maturation to be able to produce milk, but seems to have a negative effect on growth

On my 2 year breast development link at least in my anecdotal data it is clear after switching to progesterone rectally I had bump and a steady filling out through year 3 without a negative effect on growth

u/darthemofan • 2 points

Personally I see an inflection point in the curve, so you may have had a negative effect.

u/2d4d_data • 2 points

I'll post up a 3 year graph next month, but I can tell you now that the graph has continued up and to the right all this past year.

I try to be consistent with where the tape measure is, but honestly month to month there is bounce. What matters is over time results as the lying bust has continued to move up to where the standing and leaning bust are as they fill out.

u/darthemofan • 2 points

thanks; it means that measurements when lying down should be my preferred metric on my next experiment

u/LongDiscount5950 • 1 points

I don’t understand this post but I would like to just know if using estrogel in a 33F can increase breast growth?